{"updated":"2026-10-21T17:13:05Z","content_md":"[Paul Pangaro](https:\/\/ammdi.hyperphor.com\/Paul-Pangaro) on [Cybernetics](https:\/\/ammdi.hyperphor.com\/Cybernetics), AI, and Ethical Conversations\n\n![[5bq5j1v6ateygmahxdp0b7jy90]]\n\n![[2fcqpa8474b5p109dpq7mjkst3]]\n\n![[3t47sbg7f6rdf6e5m65fe209ph]]\n\n![[4dn8ezex8868037rqeqj2yyn3q]]\n\n![[4v28rcf8dx80ze1v9fjq85zb84]]\n\n![[2gmy8p4jxfmb5tp723t24jhv4c]]\n\n![[0y84t6t5cy0vqcrwnt61pvs4qx]]\n\n![[2ktgfn2ne31hecv9zaa0exmrgj]]\n\n![[16d103s32t6rmcehm67evj53nj]]\n\n![[752th1vth2vmvmsw7jtymf4212]]","changelog":[{"version":1,"at":"2026-10-21T01:52:56Z","note":null},{"version":2,"at":"2026-10-21T05:06:05Z","note":null},{"version":3,"at":"2026-10-21T17:13:05Z","note":null}],"transclusions":[{"id":"5bq5j1v6ateygmahxdp0b7jy90","version":1},{"id":"2fcqpa8474b5p109dpq7mjkst3","version":1},{"id":"3t47sbg7f6rdf6e5m65fe209ph","version":1},{"id":"4dn8ezex8868037rqeqj2yyn3q","version":1},{"id":"4v28rcf8dx80ze1v9fjq85zb84","version":1},{"id":"2gmy8p4jxfmb5tp723t24jhv4c","version":2},{"id":"0y84t6t5cy0vqcrwnt61pvs4qx","version":1},{"id":"2ktgfn2ne31hecv9zaa0exmrgj","version":2},{"id":"16d103s32t6rmcehm67evj53nj","version":1},{"id":"752th1vth2vmvmsw7jtymf4212","version":2}],"created":"2026-10-21T01:52:56Z","page":"f\/0ewx77z3qhffmxz0mdvchy8r1j\/","content_hash":"sha256:5bfaf75ed1f070c5b507c5b9b056c580b4dbc79ba4b0b71234e928cb207618e8","id":"0ewx77z3qhffmxz0mdvchy8r1j","kind":"thread","origin":"https:\/\/ammdi.hyperphor.com\/blyg\/","content_html":"<div><div><div class=\"blyg-title\"><span><a class=\"pagelink\" href=\"https:\/\/ammdi.hyperphor.com\/Paul-Pangaro\">Paul Pangaro<\/a> on <a class=\"pagelink\" href=\"https:\/\/ammdi.hyperphor.com\/cybernetics\">Cybernetics<\/a>, AI, and Ethical Conversations <\/span><\/div><\/div><blockquote class=\"blyg-transclusion\" data-blyg-id=\"5bq5j1v6ateygmahxdp0b7jy90\" data-blyg-version=\"1\"><div><iframe allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen=\"\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"315\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/VvJpkqKlv9Q\" width=\"560\"><\/iframe><\/div><\/blockquote><blockquote class=\"blyg-transclusion\" data-blyg-id=\"2fcqpa8474b5p109dpq7mjkst3\" data-blyg-version=\"1\"><div>The Macy Meetings<\/div><\/blockquote><blockquote class=\"blyg-transclusion\" data-blyg-id=\"3t47sbg7f6rdf6e5m65fe209ph\" data-blyg-version=\"1\"><div>Goal means not that we have a fixed set-in-stone goal, more like goals are a necessary component of action, we are always acting or considering acting. (Andy Pickering)<\/div><\/blockquote><blockquote class=\"blyg-transclusion\" data-blyg-id=\"4dn8ezex8868037rqeqj2yyn3q\" data-blyg-version=\"1\"><div>The idea of purpose is what defined the field, uniting the disparate fields<\/div><\/blockquote><blockquote class=\"blyg-transclusion\" data-blyg-id=\"4v28rcf8dx80ze1v9fjq85zb84\" data-blyg-version=\"1\"><div>cybernetics, neural nets, ai all intertwingled . Story about rise of AI from cybernetics. Expert systems, Hinton wars, etc. I know this story.<\/div><\/blockquote><blockquote class=\"blyg-transclusion\" data-blyg-id=\"2gmy8p4jxfmb5tp723t24jhv4c\" data-blyg-version=\"2\"><div><span>Wicked Problems. No shit. <a class=\"imga\" href=\"https:\/\/ammdi.hyperphor.com\/assets\/image_1792454212375_0.png\" target=\"_image\"><img alt=\"image.png\" src=\"https:\/\/ammdi.hyperphor.com\/assets\/image_1792454212375_0.png\" \/><\/a><\/span><\/div><\/blockquote><blockquote class=\"blyg-transclusion\" data-blyg-id=\"0y84t6t5cy0vqcrwnt61pvs4qx\" data-blyg-version=\"1\"><div>AI is a pandemic.<\/div><\/blockquote><blockquote class=\"blyg-transclusion\" data-blyg-id=\"2ktgfn2ne31hecv9zaa0exmrgj\" data-blyg-version=\"2\"><div><div>require conversations that are transdiciplinary, trance-national, trans-generational<\/div><div>something cosmic going on with the word &quot;conversation&quot;, obviously he doesn&apos;t mean idle chit-chat but serious interchange between different disciplines and points of view.<\/div><div><div><blockquote>Conversation is the bridge between cybernetics and design<\/blockquote><\/div><div>\u2013Ranulph Granville<\/div><\/div><div><div>Conversation necessitated by the need to cooperate, to act together.<\/div><div>This is interestingly protocolish, although maybe more cooperation-minded in outlook<\/div><\/div><div><div>What follows from conversation (when it works)<\/div><div>shared history, relationship, trust, respect, unity<\/div><div>something in me wants to scoff at this. I don&apos;t know why, we certainly need all that stuff. It&apos;s too idealistic? The real world has irresolvable conflicts that conversation won&apos;t solve. Protocols (engineered arguments) are like cybernetic conversations with the idealism excised and replaced by a sort of ruthless pragmatism.<\/div><\/div><div>I think conversation means something closer to what I&apos;d call interaction?<\/div><\/div><\/blockquote><blockquote class=\"blyg-transclusion\" data-blyg-id=\"16d103s32t6rmcehm67evj53nj\" data-blyg-version=\"1\"><div><div>Essence of cybernetics (aside from being concerned with purpose)<\/div><div>Antidisciplinarity (Andrew Pickering)<\/div><div>Seeks to regulate, not dominate<\/div><div>Contains an ethical imperative<\/div><\/div><\/blockquote><blockquote class=\"blyg-transclusion\" data-blyg-id=\"752th1vth2vmvmsw7jtymf4212\" data-blyg-version=\"2\"><div><div>Conversation contrasted with AI<\/div><div><a class=\"imga\" href=\"https:\/\/ammdi.hyperphor.com\/assets\/image_1792467013059_0.png\" target=\"_image\"><img alt=\"image.png\" src=\"https:\/\/ammdi.hyperphor.com\/assets\/image_1792467013059_0.png\" \/><\/a><\/div><div>But cybernetics can bridge this divide, it is bilingual<\/div><div><span>Minsky\/Papert\/Perceptrons story. von Foerster at Urbana got funding cut out through Minsky. See <a class=\"pagelink\" href=\"https:\/\/ammdi.hyperphor.com\/Marvin-Minsky\u2215on-Cybernetics\">Marvin Minsky\/on Cybernetics<\/a>. There&apos;s much confusion between tech as an industry (Silicon Valley) and the intellectual side of AI.<\/span><\/div><div><div><a class=\"pagelink\" href=\"https:\/\/ammdi.hyperphor.com\/Gordon-Pask\">Gordon Pask<\/a><\/div><div><a class=\"imga\" href=\"https:\/\/ammdi.hyperphor.com\/assets\/image_1792520705033_0.png\" target=\"_image\"><img alt=\"image.png\" src=\"https:\/\/ammdi.hyperphor.com\/assets\/image_1792520705033_0.png\" \/><\/a><\/div><div>He doesn&apos;t say this explicitly but I sense that the point of conversation is goal-alignment? &quot;Resonance&quot; resonates with this.<\/div><div><span><a class=\"pagelink\" href=\"https:\/\/ammdi.hyperphor.com\/Stafford-Beer\">Stafford Beer<\/a> \/Flores\/ <a class=\"pagelink\" href=\"https:\/\/ammdi.hyperphor.com\/Project-Cybersyn\">Project Cybersyn<\/a> as centralized control. Distinguishing cybernetic control from the more evil-sounding kind \u2013 why not say, self-control (for systems) rather than domination?<\/span><\/div><div><div>Organizing Principle<\/div><div><div>I shall act always to increase the total number of choices<\/div><div><span>&quot;choices&apos; does not mean options (?) choice is a <i>viable<\/i> option, consistent with authentic self\/being (?)<\/span><\/div><div><div><span>Guess this is a famous line but I disagree; acting requires commitment which is <i>decreasing<\/i> available choices.<\/span><\/div><div><span>Someone in q brings up <span class=\"empty\">Paradox of Choice<\/span><\/span><\/div><\/div><div>&quot;I shall&quot; vs &quot;Thou shalt&quot;. I like this. Non-moralistic, acknowledging that you are part of the world and taking responsibility (feels very Buddhist)<\/div><div><div>Ah from Heinz von Foerster, &quot;ethical imperative&quot;<\/div><div>&quot;Don&apos;t make a decision, let a descision make you&quot;<\/div><\/div><\/div><\/div><div><div>Applied to UI design<\/div><div>Amazon is options, not choices, because not to do with me. It is superficially personalized based on my past choices, but has no idea of my present.<\/div><div><div>Ethical design principles<\/div><div>apply models of human conversation<\/div><div>strive for interfaces that are cooperative, ethical, humane<\/div><div>push for new forms of conversational interface<\/div><\/div><div>Hm, this talk was pre-LLM era (2021). Now of course all interfaces are conversational or going that way. But I suspect not in the authentic way PP is talking about.<\/div><div><span>Google doesn&apos;t explain its recommendations so not a good conversational partner (LLMs actually are getting better at that, there&apos;s a whole subfield <span class=\"empty\">explainability<\/span>). He views non-explainability as unethical, which seems a bit of a stretch to me, esp in 2021 when Google wasn&apos;t pretending to be a human.<\/span><\/div><div><\/div><div><\/div><\/div><\/div><\/div><\/blockquote><\/div>","version":3,"media":[],"blyg":"0.3"}